Digging for the Why
Digging for the Why
S2 E4 - Defining The Purpose of Maths with Susan Okereke
In this week’s episode, we invite Susan Okereke to open the conversation on whether students should study maths till age 18.
We take a look at the enhancing numeracy levels in the UK and the positive effects that might have. As well as the societal impact of poor math skills and emotional responses to maths.
We also explore the importance of welcoming mistakes and encouraging inclusivity within the classroom to build both confidence and competence among students and, ultimately, a supportive learning environment.
Meet our Guest:
As an experienced maths teacher and communicator, Susan aims to encourage thought and discussion about how we can improve numeracy levels in this country and how we can make maths more engaging in the classroom. Susan is also a podcast host for Maths Appeal and a BBC Radio 4 puzzle writer. Susan is passionate about showing that maths is everywhere and for everyone.
@DoTheMathsThing
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Alison - @AlisonHopperMEI
A talented young creative iingledew produced our intro/outro – check out his Soundcloud.
Hello, and welcome to this episode of season two of Digging for the Why. The podcast for maths teachers, where we explore thoughts behind asking why. I am Andy, one of your hosts, and I'm joined as ever by the insert adjective here that Andy doesn't understand, Alison. Hello, Alison. How are you this morning?
Alison:I'm extremely well, thank you, Andy.
Andy:Well, that sounds very, very good. I
Alison:was interested to see whether you were going to put an adjective in there or not. But
Andy:don't, don't give the illusion away that this is scripted, Alison. Jeez, I mean, this is all off the cuff.
Alison:It's just that you often put an adjective in there, but,
Andy:I know, but I've realized I don't know what they mean. So I don't put one in just in case it's the wrong one. If you're listening to this thinking, what is Yon about? Go back and listen to season one, where was it enigmatic? I can't remember which one it was. It was something that I thought sounded amazing. And, and it didn't quite have the official meaning that I thought in my head. So I taught math people and, you know, I didn't really understand words. Okay. Anyway, we are, we're thrilled today to be joined by Susan Okereke. I had the pleasure of watching her speak at the MNI conference last year. And when we were thinking of, of people to get on Alison suggested Susan and, you know, she ticks every single box, what she, what she's about, what she does in her work, what she does outside of her work, you know, And so I thought, you know, I'll just go and get my little intro. I'll do my usual bit of stalking on the the old social media. And it tells me, and I can tell you guys that Susan is a math teacher and a communicator where her aim is to encourage thought and discussion about how we can improve new mission levels in this country. She's also a podcast host of Maths Appeal. So we better pretend we know what we're doing here, Alison, a little bit. She's a, she's a BBC radio for Puzzle Writer. Susan's aim is to show maths is everywhere and for everyone. Which I think, you know, anyone listening to this, who's listened to any of our shows before that is digging for the why, you know, trying to show people that everybody can ask why about this. So, hello, Susan. Good morning. Thank you so much for coming on digging for the why. How are you doing today?
Susan:Hey, good morning. Thank you for your lovely intro Andy. Oh, that's
Andy:all right. I mean, you know, it's what you write about yourself and what other people say.
Susan:Thanks for reading what I write about myself. That's very kind of you.
Andy:Exactly. That's what blogs are for. Right. That's what it's all about. Now throughout this season, we are doing it slightly differently. So we're trying to have some common questions to ask guests. And just to kind of see where the chat goes. So I'm going to start with our standard first question for this season, which basically Susan is in the last couple of weeks. What's happened to make you ask why?
Susan:Oh, well, so I had a big think about this. And I suppose the last couple of weeks, there's been a bit of chat about, like nationally, about the idea of bringing getting everyone to do maths until they're 18. And I think that's a big, big question. But what highlighted for me was the fact that this country, that's the UK, We're so emotional, mostly attached to this subject and we don't, we haven't, I don't think we dig enough into why so many people are traumatized by maths. So, like, this question of, like, people doing maths when they're 18, in many respects, everyone has to do maths. anyway to the 16 and extra two years why should that be such a big deal but if you if you were to like look on social media and just see I was just talking to my friends I was talking to people I know who aren't maths teachers and the emotional the charged emotion around the subject and the negativity around the subject just really kind of struck me. I knew about it already, but really, it really kind of raised it up sort of like last week. And it just, my question is, what is that? Why is that? Not, you know, it's not about judgment. It's like what is going on within our country for that to be the situation. Like, what is it that we can do to change that? Because the reason for bringing the idea of this extra two years, you know, fundamentally, I don't think it's a bad one, but there's a lot to discuss around it. And, you know, what's happening in the 11 plus years in, you know, Compulsory education, which isn't working, which is not just not working where people aren't feeling confident using maths They're also terrified of it or angry about the idea of having to do more and I think that's the For me, like, what is that about?
Andy:It's strange, isn't it? Maths has this bizarre badge of honor, which is either I really like maths, like I find it interesting. You know, some of it's really hard, but it's great. Or it's like, Oh, I hated maths, couldn't do it. Yeah. And it's like, What do you mean, how do you survive every day if you
Susan:couldn't do it? Yeah,
Andy:exactly. I've said many times on this podcast that people, you know, the older people get and have this badge of dishonor, I suppose, where they wear about maths that they don't like it and couldn't do it. And all of this is what they remember from school. about maths. It's the teachers that they had, it's the top Hello, so you guys don't know this on the recording, but everything just went incredibly wrong, technologically. But we're back! So, I was mid rant about badge of dishonours and things like that, and, and why these older Famous people, if you like, are quite happy to go on social media and admit that they don't like maths, hated maths, couldn't do maths and all this rubbish. So I just wanted to ask you Susan, you know, you talked about how can we improve numeracy levels in this country, how can we kind of get the discussion about improving numeracy levels in this country. Are you talking about in kids? Or are you talking about being adults or across the board?
Susan:It's multi factor, isn't it? It's multi, it's multi step. There's so much, there's so much around it. So, you know, like, so what I, I've reached, I'm reaching out. So the MEI talk I did, a few of the talks I've sort of done in the past, I'm talking to math teachers. So my thing is, oh, like, what can we do in our classroom? How can we make space for it to be safe, welcoming for students? There's a lot about, like, how we can. teach well and there's loads about that and, you know, different people teach in different ways, but there's loads you can do about that, but I think attitudinally, how do we, like, help our students to feel safe and then think that actually math is okay? But that is a bubble, okay? The reality of it is it's not, it's not me in my math classroom with my students who might be having a nice time. That's like a tiny part of their lives, actually. And their parents are the biggest impact on their lives. So what the parents say, what the parents do, how the parents interact with them, but also how they interact with their students. Let's talk specifically about maths will have a huge impact on how students perceive maths to be and how they view themselves. Like I've witnessed parents, you know, and parents even saying I can't do maths. I hate maths. I send them to the dad. I send them to the mum when they have maths homework, you know, and I've also heard kids say, Oh, no one in my family is good at maths. You know, I've had like kids say, Oh, you know, no girls aren't good at maths because no one in my family who's a girl is good at maths. So that type of thing is like, we need, that's, that is a thing that we need to really support parents to say, you don't say that it's not, it's not true. Like it's not true. But too, it's like that. In itself, the mindset for learners is huge. Like if you believe you can't do something, you won't do something. If you believe you can, there is a chance you will. So, you know, as, so that's one thing also. So there's like parents, you know, teachers is a bubble. That's like where I feel I have some impact on because I work with teachers, you know, I am a teacher, but also there's the wider society. And I think this is a big conversation. I really, really would love. I mean, I'm. a lowly teacher, but I really want to encourage this discussion as to why in this country it's okay to say that I'm not good at math or I hate it because actually the impact nationally is terrible. It's not like I'm not good at math and doesn't matter. It's like, I'm not good at math and people aren't able to pay their bills. People aren't able to look after their homes. You know, we're in a living crisis currently. People need to be able to understand probability and percentages and basic addition and see what's good deals and thinking about ratio. So being not good at math, is it like, Oh, does it matter? The impact on your life is huge. So we should be like challenging this idea. That's okay to say I'm no good because you know, it's, it's costing the country money. It's costing individuals money. It's costing people their health. So it's, it's this bigger thing of, it's, it's not one thing. I think that's why the discussions got, I got quite frustrated last week when they were talking about the idea of, you know, doing maths at 18 because it felt very basic. Because actually, it's a very, very complicated question and, and it's about going to the core of the why, like why is he talking, why is Rishi Sunak talking about adding two extra years on to, to, to, to the teaching of maths in schools? There's a variety of reasons, but one is there's an issue in this country with people and poor numeracy and the impact is on our economy. That's like, if you think basically that's like it but then you've got to think like, what, what does it mean? Like is a solution to years? No, I, well, in my personal opinion, next two years without going to the core of what's going on in the 11 plus years beforehand, that's a waste of everyone's time. Plus we've got a shortage of math teachers. Plus we don't, you know, we don't have a specialist teachers teaching math in the first place. Like, you know, so there's, it's a much more complicated thing. I think that I would really love to see as a country. Us thinking about the marketing of this subject, because yeah, as a teacher, I'm fully aware there was some content that I teach and I'm like, no, I don't think this is relevant to your lives. And that's just like, I, you know, I'm teaching some things like, oh, I don't mind this, but I don't understand why I'm teaching you this, you know? And I wish I was spending more time. You know, let's talk about this idea of like personal finance or getting people competent and confident with numbers. So they're able to think strategically and methodically about problem solving, think critically about data. You know, like how can you read data and see asking good questions, which we as math teachers should be doing. And I think that's numeracy. This is quite left field, but I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think there should be two qualifications at school and there should be numeracy GCSE that everyone has to do in this kind of pass or fail. And I think it's that everyone has to have basic, good competent everyday maths to go into the world with data in there, understand the basics of statistics, thinking about, like, problem solving. And that, and that's like, everyone has to do numeracy without question. Because most people, I don't think, would argue that. And then I think the maths Should be an option and I think it should just be higher because I fundamentally think that the foundation GCSE is not fit for purpose at all.
Andy:No, I yeah, I completely agree. You know having I taught for 20 years in secondary and I remember picking up a class I went to a school in London and I picked up a year 11 class bottom set You know, the aim was to try and pass we're trying to get G's here and going in going right Let's figure out where they're at, what they can do in the first couple of weeks. And they didn't want to be in the classroom. They didn't want to be in school. You know, this is year 11. They've got what? Five months left or something. And they just had enough. And I kind of said to them, right, you know, our job here isn't to get UCs because that's, you know, we're not going to get there because they were going to either fail or get a G. So I grabbed metros from the train station, just gave them to him and said, right, find something you don't know about maths. Like what in here that's current in the world right now. What do you want to know? Because in these next few months, at least I can give you those skills. And it kind of worked, you know, they, they asked about like the things you mentioned there, they asked about the stocks and shares and the graphs and like, what's this showing me? What, what would we do with this? How do we work one of these out? And you can gradually then get them back to the curriculum and try and get some things out of them.
Susan:You're obviously like you there, obviously like you're a really confident math teacher who understands the idea of like, How do we get these people engaged first and then show them something interesting to kind of learn from? And like the reality of it is you, you know, what's really, so I've, I've for many years now worked with foundation GCSE students and I've, you know, worked in schools, bottom sets and things. And it's, it's, it's such a journey. Because you know, having done it for a long time, you know that a number of them are going to, I hate the word fail because it's not failing, but they're not going to get the four. In somebody's eyes, where there's
Andy:this magic number that you have to get.
Susan:Society's eyes, like they know, like, you know, it's like, it's not failing, but in our society on that day in August, when they get the results, it's seen as failure. They have to re sit because it's seen as failure. And so. There, there, there's a real, like if you were given a year 11 bottom set, which I've had been given a number of times you have to rethink how you, how you work with them, because there's a fragility to that. And it might be through that their bad behavior dis you know, disengagement, you know, learning difficulties, whatever. But they know in that group that they've got to do an exam in the summer that matters. That really, really, really matters. But they also, some of them who, if they're not, you know, if they're in denial, some of them like I'll pass it, even though they might not pass it. And there's others who know they're not going to pass it. So you're dealing with a number of months of them being disconnected there. And, but actually what you said about getting them engaged with what matters in a practical real. Yeah. You know, engaging sense like Matt in the real world, like, why shouldn't we be doing that with them? Why am I trying to shoehorn pythagoras's theorem into their existence? Because it might get them some crossover marks Because actually what these people need is to be super confident with percentages. They need to be able to comprehensively read a question and understand what it's saying. So we should spend time on that. And like, if getting to year 11, they're 16 years old, 15, 16, they'll have done a lot of maths already. And what's really frustrating is they've seen a lot of the maths you're trying to shoehorn into a year, but it's not, they've not engaged with it properly. And that's like, That is sad, you know, but and that's, it's, and it's for a variety of reasons. It's not like you get to year 11 bottom set and there's no, there's not a story there. All of them have a story. I think it's about working out what we do with those students because the system is messed up. Like 30 percent of students every year are going to not get a four. That is the system in our country. That's like, you know, of the kids who are doing it, 30 percent are not going to get the 4, and have to re sit it. And even if, say, it's one year, there are loads of students who do really well, still 30 percent of them are going to not pass it. There's a problem there, and we need to just like, almost let the students know that. Resits are a thing that you might have to do. It's okay, it isn't failure. Like, you know, some students, if you get a 3, why is a 3 terrible? Like, why is it terrible? Well, you know, shouldn't we be thinking, well, you've got a three for this, but what other maths qualifications can you do that will help you in the real world? Because
Andy:with actual life,
Susan:actual life in jobs, jobs that probably we don't even know exist yet. How can we get them prepared for that? Because being able to do prime factorization, like, you know, like, yeah, like I'll get you three marks on a GCSE foundation paper, but after that, when
Andy:am I ever going to use this in my life?
Susan:You're not. What do you mean? Well,
Andy:you're not.
Susan:You know.
Andy:You know, there's no other answer to it. You're not. Like, it's problem solving skills. That's what you get. And I
Susan:don't hate teaching it. I love it. Cause I think loads of kids really enjoyed the whole like, get a number. Oh, what do I know? What's a prime? What's a prime? They enjoy the process of it. But if we talk about it more like, What skills are you getting from doing this topic? You know, like what transferable skills you're doing by being methodical? Why is it useful to know prime numbers? Like what, anything that is it useful to know prime numbers? Is it useful to notice patterns? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Can you notice what's going on with these things to go, okay, are we multiplying by two or I can recognize this. And that is the conversation you should be having with the students? Not have we covered stem and leaf graphs? Who cares? We shouldn't be
Andy:having that conversation at 15, 16 years old.
Susan:Oh, another massive question.
Andy:That's the thing, right? And this is the point you were making, I think, that, and this is, you know, one of the things that we, we did this podcast for, to try and talk about one of the episodes in season one, you know, What happens to them from primary school? They have this curiosity, this, this, this thrill of learning maths, if you like. And all of a sudden we get them at secondary and, and they can just be turned. And we've discussed a lot of that in the, in the first season. And where do we lose them? Because if a kid has to come to me at 15, 16 and say, Oh, when am I ever going to use this in real life? Something's been missed out of their journey and their story and their teaching earlier on. for them to understand the point of what they're trying to get out of the maths that they're learning.
Alison:They're saying that earlier and earlier. I've heard primary school children say that, what's the point of this? When am I going to use this? And I think it all links back, Susan, to what you were saying about attitudes in society around mathematics and the messages they're getting from the adults in their lives of, Oh, well, I've never used this. I don't know why you're bothering. You know, this isn't, this isn't important. And I was working with primary maths subject leads yesterday. And we're trying to look at the impact that they have on children's mathematics in their school. So they, there's a lot of talk around and I was guilty of it myself as a subject leader when I was first there of what I had done as subject lead and what I had asked my colleagues to do. And so, and the conversation stopped there. And so evidence of, of what we changed in maths in the school went as far as what we as adults had done. And I needed somebody to ask the awkward question that we've now started asking and saying, okay, that's great. But what's changed with the children? And we got to thinking yesterday about. And there's a bigger, there's a huge question that I think you've touched on, Susan, is why are we, why are they there, what is this education all about? Why are we sitting in school for however many hours a day doing stuff that we can't really see the point, the point of? There's a big missing question and I think it's possibly also missing with maybe, I don't know, maybe I don't know whether I should say it, but missing in terms of the adults standing in front of them. You know, how do we see our role? I remember a really interesting, two really interesting conversations I had. One with a year four child who asked me what my proper job was. I was his class teacher. He viewed me as like the scout leader, kind of. Minding the kids for the day and he had this view that when they went home at 3. 30, I went and did my proper job. And I said, well, this is my proper job. So it was a huge sort of, you know, Did they call you Arkayla as
Andy:well?
Alison:They didn't call me Arkayla, no, no, no. But various, I'm sure other things behind my back, but not Arkayla's on my face, no. And then a few years later with the year six class, we were writing, um, there was something we were collecting words on the board and there was a word that I couldn't spell. I said, Oh, I hate this word. I can never spell this word. I can't remember what it was now. And one of my year sixes was a, had, was much better speller than I was. And she gave me the spelling. And one of the kids said, Oh, there's a first to child telling a teacher something. I thought that's not a first and it certainly shouldn't be a first. And so we had, we stopped the science lesson at that point. And we had a real talk about, you know, why was I standing there not wearing a school uniform? And why were they sitting there wearing a school uniform? And I said, well, I've got a few years on you. And I went off to university and I've got some bits of paper that say I'm qualified to stand up here and do this. I said, but you lot are going to be better mathematicians than me, better writers than me. Most of you are already better artists than I am. I might give you a run for your money with music. I'm quite good at that. I said, but you know, you have the potential and all I'm here to do is to try and make sure that you see that potential and are equipped with the skills to go and meet your potential. I probably didn't say it in exactly those words because they were 10 and 11, but there was a sort of real moment of, I think I might have got this a bit wrong with what this whole setup's all about. But I think it's, but this is so
Susan:lovely. But I love what you've just said there, in the way that like, you know, that we are, as teachers, we should primarily be like, almost model learners, you know, and this idea of us knowing everything is kind of nonsense. But it's also that I think, I think is also, I say that with this idea of like, I think with maths, and I say this loving the subject, I really enjoy teaching it. I really, really enjoy teaching it. But I also think we should be talking about the content of what we're doing and why we're doing it. So it's because we can rock up with the same content, change the scheme of work slightly, but it's the same content and just chug like Check this out year after year after year. I mean, get better at doing it, but it's like the same content. And I'm like, right, yes. And I, and I like doing that because I'm also now quite good at teaching some of the stuff I've done it so often. But the question is how helpful is this to the students we're teaching? How ready for the real world are we actually making them? And also if you're saying, Oh, this student, these kids aren't getting this, you're like, well, yeah, okay. But why is that? Is it even worth us doing, asking them to get it in the first place? You know, and it's, I know it's quite a disruptive thing to ask, but I'm like, the world we're living is changing so quickly, so quickly. And like, we need people to be critical thinkers. We need people, like, loads of jobs now that people would normally be able to walk into and not have to be well trained on, are disappearing. As in like, they will not exist in five to ten years. The thing that makes us different to automated robots that can do, like, manual jobs better than us, is the fact that we can be critical, and observe things, and be able to, like, notice differences. This is what we should be doing in our math lessons. Thinking about personal finance, getting us people like, you know, we're going to live in cost of living crisis. People aren't able to do basic percentages, which means they're throwing money where they don't have. We should be getting everyone read, like the country's losing money for no real reason, because a hundred percent of kids are doing maths, but the content, how helpful is it for them? And I think that's the question, like, that we should be just asking in a more, as opposed to add on two years, What are we doing in the 11 years that they're in school to get them ready for the world outside? And I think there needs to be a change in the subject, to be honest.
Alison:I think there's also the two sides to it, which you sort of touched on. There's the, there's the actual content of what we teach and its usefulness to everyday life. But there's also, as you said, those critical thinking skills. And I was just, I was just having a look because I read something a few months ago. I'm terrible at remembering the stuff I've read. And that causes me issues
Andy:when I have to try and find links to them.
Alison:I know, I will find it for you because I know I wrote loads down about it and I probably even created a document to share with somebody else as well. So I will find it, Andy, and it will get a link. But it was talking about all these, it's It, oh, it's, it's overused, but the unpeeling, the onion bit, and in the middle of the onion is the, the maths that we, the, the maths that is useful to us in our everyday life and the maths that we want children to learn. Mm. And then wrapped around that, there were all those critical thinking, problem solving, the meta you know, the, the meta world of the classroom. Yeah. And so I was thinking about you saying about pys and, yeah. Okay. pys not. always very useful. I used it very often in my, in my life. But I, what fascinated me and fascinated me again when I heard somebody else teaching Pythagoras, what was in the lesson where it was being taught, was the fact that people seek these generalizations, people seek these General truths that will always happen given a set of, of criteria. Mm-Hmm.. And knowing that things like that exist helps me to think and look for that in other places. So, no, the actual nuts and bolts of, of the square and the hypotheses is equal to some of the squares on the other two sides in the right angle, triangle, I don't use very often, but the fact that those generalizations and those rules and proofs exist, mm. help me to go and look for them in other aspects of my life. And it might be that I'm looking for them in, in music, in the structure of the, of the, of the tunes that we play. That it might be, you know, I can kind of apply it to to, to cooking that, you know, if you get the same ratio of flour, eggs and butter and sugar, you will make a cake. You can then vary it by adding your different flavorings in. But if you've got that, that generalization of a cake, you can then kind of extrapolate from it. And so those, I don't. I think we get so caught up in the content that we don't ask that question of why are we learning maths? What is the learning of mathematics giving to us as thinkers? And, you know giving us in terms of an ability to, to interact successfully with the world around us.
Susan:Yeah, well, because we've just said there, I think is so is again, really useful to. To, to think about is maths giving us, because what upsets me is the fact that if you think about, and I think I'm going to be like quite general here, but I think the majority of the UK, you ask them to like maths, they don't like it. Like a lot of people like it, but the, the general narrative is, I hate it. Can't do it. Doesn't really matter or can't do it. It's really important, but I can't do it like there's this whole like thing and there are people obviously within that like us who are like, we love it. It's great. But the, the, the way it's talked about in general is like math is hard and boring and whatever. And what is sad is this word math is just thrown around like it's a simple thing. And it's just not simple. Like, you know, it's a really complicated, interwoven, connective thing that's huge. It is content, but it's also skill. It's also transferable skill. It's also a tool like it's huge, like massive. And what is sad is when it gets reduced to I hate it, there's no point in it. And you're like, no, there's definitely a point in it, but I understand that your thing, because a lot of the people, people are saying this because they've been hurt emotionally. Like, let's not get that twisted. People have had awful experiences with this subject. And I think it's quite one of those that a lot of people have like locked onto and realize that they're not alone in it. So they feel safe to say it. The amount of times I've gone to events, like going to like friends, to met like friends of friends, like those my friends aren't math, aren't teachers. So, you know, I feel quite blessed in that. It's quite a variety of people that I meet. And when I tell them I'm a math teacher, like I've got, now, I'm at one with this space. I'm quite up for like feeling this. But, to begin with, a math teacher, and you'd see their faces change. Like, pain, actual pain. And, oh, gosh. One. You must be so clever. Hmm. Okay. Question mark two. Oh, you can see that back to wherever it was, the place they were.
Andy:That instant little I'm going to be in a 15 year old where I hated this. Couldn't do it. Yeah.
Susan:Humiliated. Felt stupid
Andy:so many times
Susan:in the eyes. And you're just going to go, it's okay. It's fine. I'm not that person. I'm cool. We're cool. Yeah. Tell me about it. And actually what I've found is most of them use scratch the surface. They want to tell you about it. they, they, they really are like traumatized by it. And then if you're like, like, I, I quite, I mean, like, like talk, talk to me, like, what is that? You know? And I love teaching it. I think everyone can do it. And they just are quite, they're like, well, everyone can do it. What do you mean? I'm like, no, seriously. Like, that's why I do this job. I sincerely believe most people, if they are one up for the challenge, You know, they come in and they're into it to trust me. And three, you know, are willing to struggle. You know, and it's a safe space willing to find it a bit difficult and up for just like giving it a go. Progress can be made without a problem. Like I just like 100 percent believe that that's, I'm like, I love, and I love teaching it for that. You know, you can come in and think, Oh, I can't. And you're like, do you know what? Trust me, have a go, sit in the space. And that feeling on the other side is absolutely fantastic for them. And to witness it as a teacher is, I just love it. Right. But I just know so many people have not had that feeling of like struggle and then success because that is what people who love maths yearn for. Give someone a problem who loves maths, they're like, it's difficult. It's really hard. I'm gonna get it. I'm just gonna get it. And they're going, ah, see, it's amazing. You know, and that's, that's the thing that like people who say I hate maths or can't do it. They've not had that feeling of, oh, I can't do it. I'm going to try. It's difficult, finding it really hard. Oh, it started to make sense. Oh, I've done it! And that success is the addiction that people who like maths
Andy:The mathematical kick that you get when you prove something, when you solve something from whatever age you are, right the way through to us, you know. I'm rapidly approaching my mid forties and I don't remember a time. Obviously, I've always enjoyed maths. I've always been, you know, Inverted commas, which you can't see on a podcast, good at maths, but you know, I still don't, I've said to Alison before, I don't count myself as a true mathematician. I've got a degree in maths. Who's a good at maths. Yeah. Same.
Susan:I'm a teacher
Andy:who's good at maths.
Susan:Snap. Snap. And that's the thing. I don't think of myself as good at math at all. I very much think if I can do it, everyone can, but what's crazy is, you know, if you A lot of people see us on a pedestal and I kind of go, no, no, no, like,
Andy:you
Susan:know, and that's what I find super interesting. It's like, I don't think of myself as very different to anyone. to everyone, really. And that's what makes me feel sad when so many people say they can't, so I'm like, oh no, you definitely can.
Alison:I think it's really interesting that, defining what it means for being good at maths, because I've been told I'm good at maths, and I was told I was good at maths at school. I have a reasonable memory for mathematics. I could remember how to do things. And I got an A level maths, and I needed a bit of support to get my A level, but I did get an A level in maths And after I got my A Level in Maths, I was presumably fairly good at Maths. I worked in a pub after I left sixth form before I went off to university. And it was then, working in that pub, where the landlord said it had to be women behind the bar and we all had to wear skirts. Which is, there's some, there's some wise to us there as well, I think. We weren't allowed to use the cash register or a calculator. He had to do all the maths, mental maths. And so I was 19 when I made the discovery that if you had a number with a 7 in the, in the pennies, an amount of money with a 7 in the pence and a 5, you'll always end up with something with a 2. I had an A level in maths
Andy:and
Alison:I distinctly remember post A level discovering that. And so I think my definition of being good at maths, I was good at maths at that point because I worked hard, I remembered stuff and I regurgitated it on the, on a paper. And I still remember the sense, that sense of way when I proved that lambda, the coefficient of restitution equals a third, that was one of the highlights. I nearly got up and ran around the exam hall. But I, I restrained myself and I sat down. And. But I now consider myself to be an awful lot better at math because I actually understand it and I don't, I can't, I can't calculate the coefficient of restitution anymore because I haven't studied that bit of math in the way that I now feel I kind of understand the key stage, well, early years one, two and three curriculum probably. There are elements of the key stage four curriculum that I haven't done for a long time and key stage five, I'd have to do a lot of work to get there, but I think I would have a better stab at it now because I've got a much more. interconnected understanding of why maths works the way it does. And I, I just go back and I think I've probably said it in, in possibly even more than one of the, of these podcasts. The fact that a lot of the reasons that, that, that our young people give for not liking maths is that there's too much to remember. And the reasons that people give for liking maths is there's not a lot to remember. And that goes back to that warm, fuzzy feeling of understanding when you, when that, that moment when two bits of. information locked together in your, in your brain. And I, and I. Why does that make sense? Why does it not make sense? And I think our pupils don't maybe ask that and they don't recognise
Susan:that. I kind of, I do want to challenge the idea of being good at maths though. Like I have a real, it's a bugbear of mine. Because I think I just,
Alison:yeah, I've got No, I completely agree. I think it is. And I think it's a, it's a, I think when we say that, what we, What do we mean by that? And I don't think that's, I don't think it's worth defining, we can all be good at maths. That's
Andy:the problem though, isn't it? It is defined as someone who is at the top of the pyramid of calculus, they're good at maths.
Susan:Yeah, this is it. And it's like,
Andy:well no, because you know what? I've taught people who, at their level, are really good at maths. Also, I've got better. Yeah, and they don't need to go and do a degree in maths or study calculus at that level or solve these horrendous equations that you might have to solve. They don't need to do that. It's a competence
Susan:level though. I think it's taking away from, like, I just almost wish it wasn't a subject. Because there's so much, it's so loaded as a subject, as a name. Because it's like, actually, like what you said, Alison, like you, you said you did your A Levels, and then you went, you know, you kind of went and you worked in the real world, and you said you noticed something about, like, you know, these numbers, seven and five give you a two in the unit. Nice, okay. And it's a type of thing that that's like, The exploration and noticing of these things, I think, is where the magic of the subject of maths is. And I think it's never ending. Like, I, like, in theory, I should have been the best at maths. and math after my degree. And I just, what, I'm so much better now in a way I say better now in an area, in, in school maths, school maths. I'm like, you know, especially now like key stage three maths where I've spent a lot of time thinking about the different ways we think about representing things. Like I've been on training stuff and talked about proofs and we've done it using like blocks and like bits of blocks. And I'm like, Oh my God, it's. This is insane, like it's so awesome being able to draw a thing that represents odd and even numbers that then you can generalize and make into like algebra, like in a way that I was very good at quadratic equations. I could differentiate and integrate blah, blah, blah. I could, and I had a basic understanding and I have a much better understanding of that stuff having taught like higher GCSE and like A level because I've had to go deeper in that space for my understanding and it's like just the label of good at maths I just wish would be just thrown away like it's like It's almost like, oh, you're a good reader, who cares? Like, can you read? That's the thing, you know, in Maths, can you use this tool in the world? And also, can you use a tool in the classroom?
Alison:I think there's also, though, the reading is deeper than that, because working in, in primary education, as I have, there were kids who were labelled as good at reading, who did what was, what was rather unkindly called, Barking at print and they could decode the words and make it make sense, but there was absolutely no sense of understanding. There was no comprehension. And so they could bark out a paragraph at you, but have no sense of what they'd read. And I think there's a danger that we, that we We transpose that into, into maths and that if you know your times tables, there's an obsession with knowing our times tables. I could know my times tables, they wouldn't do me any use if I don't understand what, what's underlying it, what the multiplicative structures are, what does four times five mean? You know, and if I see a four and a five in a problem, how do I know whether I've got to add them or multiply them or subtract them? them or do, how do I know if they're linked additively or multiplicatively? And so I think, I think the the, the, there are parallels between the, sort of the, the, there are parallels. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a basic bit of maths that we can get to, but unless we go below that and say, well, what does it, yeah, but what does it mean? Okay. Seven and three is 10. Great. What, why, why and what, and how can I, how's that useful to me in the future?
Susan:But yeah. But I do think there's two, this is why I'm like, I almost feel like it's a campaigning for, I do think there needs to be more discussion on this idea of numeracy and maths, because numeracy As a function in our day to day existence, everyone should have, everyone should, I think I should, with that throw in analysis of data, throw in personal finance, like, and the people should have basic numbers, like know about like measurement units, thinking about like ratio, thinking about the real world, like that is, can you do the math necessary in the real world for you? and your potential family to succeed to, and in your workspace. And a hundred percent of people need that. A hundred percent. Even people with learning difficulties, like we're trying to encourage people to have independence. Like it's something that everyone should have. Like being able to read and write. Numeracy, everyone should be numerate. Full stop. The math thing, people who have an affinity for, or are going to do psychology, or going to do geography, or going to do engineering, or going to do architecture, need to know about Pythagoras and understand where it comes from. Need to know about generalizations. Need to be able to think, why is this happening with this structure in math? And be able to analyze that and use that, which will then be used in the specific area of the career later. Not everyone needs that information. Some people love it and they want to do it higher, at a higher level because they love to see those connections and like generalizations and enjoy the idea of justifying proofs and all the rest of it. Wonderful. But not everyone needs that. And we, I think we just need to understand that as a thing, as like, as a, education industry and the education system that we need to be preparing people for the real world one. And then for those who are interested in going into STEM subjects or just love math as a thing, you know, then they have to do math that is effectively the higher level stuff that is about really, really looking at how things work and, you know, questioning that, thinking about mathematical thinking or the rest of it. And I just think we need, because we're not serving people currently, not properly.
Andy:So how do we, how do we make those decisions? You know, how do we, when do we make those decisions? That's the bit that always, I completely agree with you. And the bit I always get stuck at and always have done for 20 years of teaching and being in education is I don't want to pigeonhole this kid. 14 to say, Oh, you're going to do this course. I don't want you to have access to that math because you're not going to need it because I'm the adult and I can make that decision. And that's the bit that always. I'd go, Oh,
Susan:but when,
Andy:when can I make that decision?
Susan:I think year nine is a really interesting space in this country. I think year nine, there's a lot going on within that. But I think, I think I would say everyone has to do numeracy. And then, but people have to take options anyway. This happens anyway. I think make maths as in the subject, which will be higher maths, would be like effectively the higher content of the GCSE. Make, and again, I'm thrashing this idea out for the first time properly, and this is a good question you've asked me, because I'm like, because I think, I really think this is important, I think we should talk about this properly, and I think it should be an option at year eight or year nine where, but students need to know what options there are, so it's like, if you're looking to get into engineering, you know, I think careers need to be, needs to be better in schools. For people to be making decisions at the age of, of like 13, just like cutting off stuff, but we don't, I think careers in schools, we need to put more money into that. That's just the thing that needs to improve full stop. And on the back of that, then students can make more informed decisions. And I think year nine is a safer space to do that than year eight, I think. And then, and I think, I think 100 percent of people should do the numeracy GCSE until year 11. Like, I just think, you know, because even still, I think even students who are doing the higher, doing the GCSE maths higher level should still leave school at 16 having done the numeracy because they need to be on point with that. That is something that you leave school and you should be skipping into the real world going, I know about percentages. I know how to, I know what mortgage is. I know how to look at a graph and say that is rubbish data. Everyone should leave school able to do that. And so, yeah.
Alison:Is this a sort of, is this I don't know. Is this an an, an argument in favour of core maths
Susan:GCSE? Yes. Yes and yes again. Like I taught it, I taught it a few years ago. And I was asked to teach it and I was like, oh, I don't want to. It's a new subject. It's like, you know, it's a. Like I had some spare space and they were like, Oh, we see it's a new course. And I was like, Oh, they went to the training. I was like, Oh, it seems quite interesting. And I taught it and I was like, this is awesome. It's awesome. Everything I said was like, this is a hundred percent useful. Every single thing I'm saying is useful. Everything I'm saying is useful, you know? And it was like these kids, I just, I was like, we should be doing this. When they're 14, 15 and every child should have this information, not a question, just it is what it is like it was a small group and I was able and I was able to explore math in a way I've not done, but I was learning stuff before speaking to them. I've got a degree in mathematics and business studies. Like I was reading and learning and going, Oh, wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, I was able to work out that, you know, it tells you, you can work out your income tax. Everyone should know what's going on with their tax when it comes to their income. A hundred percent of people should understand what's happening with their wages. But that isn't the case. And there's only a tiny set of people who potentially take core maths if their school offers it. Potentially. Will have that knowledge. Unless they do accounting or whatever. That's nonsense.
Andy:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is a wonderful course. Yeah, I think, I, you know, I think you could easily turn it into a, almost like a four year course, two years of GCSE style core maths. This is what you need. And then you kind of go into core maths A level, or you go into A level maths, or, you know, you've done your GCSE maths alongside like you're suggesting. I think it's interesting that, you know, at this point Alison will probably giggle because I always say the exact same thing. Just conscious of time. Honestly, I could sit here and talk to you all day. Absolutely could do that all day, but I'm just. I sit here and think about what do I want? I always want somebody to take something away from an episode if they listen to it. Yeah. Yeah. Well and as we said at the start, it's amazing really how, you know, we've done a couple of these for season two now, and we've basically asked one of our questions and then we just go where it goes and it's been great. It's been really, really good. And I think that the overall message that I'm hearing from you is that we don't disagree that Master 18 is a good idea. Yeah. I mean, it would be nice if core maths had been mentioned at the point of mentioning that. So I, I tutor a kid in year nine. I've said this to Allison before, I think I've said it on the podcast before. First thing she said to me was like, I don't was like, you don't actually have to do A level maths. There's other courses available. Like, and she was like, really? I was like, yeah, yeah. You know, there are other things and it's a wonderful course. And actually I really like it. But yeah, there's this kind of change in the narrative around maths, around numeracy. You know, could you imagine if, if we had more informed parents, more numerate parents, if you like, with an understanding of what their kids are learning at school and why, then the decision to choose a GCSE maths or GCSE core maths, if you like, or something in year nine, that's an informed decision that parents can help with. Yeah. Then that would sit a lot easier with me than me being a teacher going, Stamp, you're through. Stamp, you're not through kind of thing. And that's why, that's why I don't like. And I think we need to He talked earlier about failure. And kids failing, and kids don't like failing. Kids hate failing. People
Susan:don't like failing.
Andy:We have to as teachers, create the atmosphere, and you said this earlier Susan, well that's fine. You know, there's a wonderful, my oldest kid is six. She was teaching about split digraphs the other day, no idea what they were but she was teaching me and it was great because I can sit there as a 43 year old with my, you know, daughter in year one telling me, Daddy, that's a split digraph. I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about, Chloe. And she said, well, it's this and she explained it to me and I was like, Oh, that's kind of cool. So, you know, we had that discussion and I can be you know, broad shoulder than if you like, or whatever it to be go. I don't know what that is, you know, teach me, I want to learn about that. And you alluded to that earlier, Susan, where yes, we've got degrees in maths, but you know what? I was, my mind was blown when I first saw the yellow and red counters to represent plus one, huge. When I saw some of the ways of introducing, taking away negative numbers and adding, and I just saw that and I was like, Oh, this is amazing. And some of the other things that I've seen in numeracy and, you know, of course I can add numbers up and take numbers away, but it's not about me. It's about the kids in front of me. And there's a wonderful program on Netflix. It's a, it's a book series really from Ada twist scientist and Rosie Revere engineer and Iggy Peck architect, and she's got friends. They're all in the same class and this author is amazing. Ada Twist scientist does now a show on Netflix, which the Obama's commissioned and paid for, I think and it promotes, I think there's six or seven, the kids in it and they have songs, but one of the things is, it's about being, you know, learning and there's a song where it's like, I want to give up because it's not working. And they sing, they say, you know, don't give up, don't give in. You got to learn to make failure your best friend. And it's like, that is everything about education because too many people will go are failed at that bang, switch off down tools done. That's me. That's me finished. And that's what happens to kids in year nine maths and then into GCSE maths. And it's like, bang. Oh, you're still can't do this one. Bang. You still can't do this one. Bang. You still can't do this one. And that's it.
Susan:It's just, but this is, this is where I think that the narrative around math has to shift and that's the, that's the discussion I'm, I'd love to kind of encourage. I don't know where you start this. It's like, it's because the failure part, like, maths. When you do problems, you get, you make mistakes and it gets you closer to the answer. A lot of the time, like failure is a part of success. Like this is what can you learn from your tripping over or making a mistake? What can you learn from each other? Like, I think also matters can be so collaborative and powerful when other people see the mistake you've made and move you forward. And I just wish there was the narrative of. You have to be quick, you, it only matters if the answer's correct, you know, that all this nonsense, because it's not nonsense, but it is like, it's not the most important thing, because as a math teacher, the skills around it are so much more important than the answer. Do you know what I mean? And that's like, and I think parents, there's an old school way. I think that that's a hangover to that because the parents maybe who are taught in an old school way, you've had an awful time or it's okay to say math is hard and really like difficult, feed that to the kids and the kids will say stuff like, Oh, it doesn't matter. I've got the right answer. And you're like, no, no, that's changed. That is different. I don't care. I don't care about your answer. How did you get there? And that is like this idea of mistakes and failure are good. If you learn from them, and that's what we need to be encouraging in the maths classroom. And I think the talk around maths needs to be much more about inclusivity. Because I think also there's a massive problem with loads of people who feel confident in maths and actually get off on making people feel rubbish. I mean, social media is terrible. So people will actively say, if someone says, I found something difficult, make a mistake, they will just publicly shame them. That should not be acceptable. I don't lose my temper much in the classroom, but if somebody laughs at someone else for making a mistake, I lose it. It's not acceptable. You know, the learning process involves mistakes. What can we learn from what that person has said? I think this idea that. People are good at Maths are up here and people who are bad at Maths are down here. But actually people down here are in a community of like, being okay to say that Maths is rubbish. So then there's this divide between people. So there shouldn't be a divide. We need the subject to survive. That's what it is. It comes, well numeracy anyway, we all need the subject to survive. We all need to be confident in the subject. And that's what needs to happen. And there's a part of me that kind of goes, maybe separate numeracy and Maths first. So everyone just goes, because no parent, I think can say, you don't need to understand basic Maths. to live. Because actually, most parents will know, if you go to the shops, if you've got any bills, if you've got to decorate your house, if you've got to work at your wages, you need skills, and they want their kids to have that. That's not a discussion, that's like, people need basic maths skills, that isn't an argument. The maths thing is a bit separate, and that's like another marketing thing that needs to be discussed. And so my big push is, we need to get people prepared and ready to go into the real world, confident and competent in the basics, and we're not doing that currently. And that's the discussion I really want to make. How do we change that? I think math teachers are the key. I think we are What happens in parent people's houses, we don't have much control over. Yes, it's the most important thing. That's had the biggest impact on kids. We can't argue that. But, school's also quite a powerful place. And if you can create a space where kids don't mind coming into your room, they feel safe to try, they feel safe to make mistakes, they feel It's okay to say that math is okay, and they leave your classroom thinking it's all right. That is power for them, you know, because they need to go into the world with that attitude. And we as math teachers have, we actually have a lot of power in that really, I think.
Andy:That is a perfect place, I think, to finish because that is, that's the story of this episode. Let's, you know, let's change the narrative around what people think about maths and get people asking why and wanting to know why. Right. Conscious of time, . It's, it's been a pleasure. An absolute pleasure, Susan. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Alison, it is a wonderful suggestion to, to ask Susan to come on here. So, oh, you guys, that has been brilliant. You know, forget season three. And considering that we've just basically decided we're having a season two, hey, we'll get you back on again. You know, I'd love to chat more maths with you. Absolutely.
Susan:I could talk till the cows come home. It's been really wonderful talking to you guys too. You know, really great.
Andy:I will get all links to Susan's podcast and you can see more about her Twitter handles, et cetera. I'll put all that in the notes. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you guys have taken something away from this episode. And we look forward to talking to you again in the future. Thank you, Alison, for today.
Alison:Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Andy:Thanks again, Susan. We will talk to you all again in another episode of Digging with the White. Take care.
